How Does Your Garden Grow? (was: Aphid infestation)

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Forum : Tell Me Something I Don't Know

Author	Topic: How Does Your Garden Grow? (was: Aphid infestation)
Keevan	posted June 14 2006 09:01 PM ARGH. As i've posted elsewhere in the food column, i've got tons of herbs. They are thriving. I also have eight different pepper plants...but I discovered something the last couple of days that has concerned me. The peppers (and only the peppers) are infested with aphids. Little teeny tiny, no bigger than a pin head aphids. I had noticed what I thought was pollen, sort of clear, sesasme seed things on the leaves. But then i realized that they weren't pollen...they were moving. And then there were eggs. And finally (yeah!) ladybugs. But the aphids outnumber the ladybugs about 1000 to 1. How do I get rid of them? How do I get more ladybugs? Why are they only infecting my pepper plants...?
Keevan	posted June 14 2006 09:19 PM googling hasn't provided an effecive answer to getting rid of them. however, i'm now 99% certain the little buggers are green peach aphids. we're probably in first or second generation. they go through a life cycle every 6! days! each fucking beast can have 85 babies. i want them to die. ARGH.
DSF	posted June 14 2006 11:21 PM If you're trying to go organic, you can buy ladybugs. http://www.marchbiological.com/L/ladybug.html, for example, or go to your local garden supply, and they'll surely be able to point you in the right direction. The ladybug's larvae dine on aphids. In the meantime, you could try spraying your plants with a mixture of 1 tablespoon liquid dish detergent and 1 cup vegetable oil, and mix 1.5 tsp of this concentrate to 1 cup of water. Unfortunately, this will also kill whatever ladybugs you already have.
Peanut	posted June 15 2006 12:06 AM be careful. Back in the day, some well-meaning gummint outfit dumped Asian ladybugs in these parts to combat aphids - and now we're overrun. The damn things cluster in the lightbulb wells in your house, swarm in your eaves, and generally make a pest of themselves - for months.
Keevan	posted June 15 2006 12:36 AM I found the local garden supply store. City Floral: http://www.cityfloralgreenhouse.com/ will head there tomorrow on my way home from work. any idea how quickly ladybugs work? how many do you need? i'll ask tomorrow. i have eight pepper plants. and about 2000 aphids. i'm willing to go the ladybug route first...then insecticide.
Demeter	posted June 15 2006 01:32 PM Before you go the ladybug route, Keevan, you may want to try Safer Soap. Not that you shouldn't get the ladybugs, but that if the infestation is as bad as I think, ladybugs alone won't do it. So, Safer Soap the plants first, rinse them off after a few days, and then let the ladybugs loose. There will probably be enough aphids hanging around after just one application to keep the ladybugs happy. Some info: http://www.pestproducts.com/safersoap.htm
Keevan	posted June 15 2006 01:39 PM I'll inquire about safersoap. i might create a three step battle plan: soap, ladybugs, insecticide. one of the warnings on the safer soap says, do not use in full sun. i get full sun virtually every day until about noon... and yes, the infestation is probably as bad as you think it is. hot dry conditions = aphid heaven.
Peanut	posted June 15 2006 02:24 PM De, have you got any wisdom on Japanese beetles? Every year my rose o' Sharon get overrun with the damned things. At least they're pretty, but oy, do they do some damage.
Demeter	posted June 15 2006 03:48 PM Don't know much about Japanese beetles. 10base's landlady has a tree that is attractive to them, and I believe she uses beetle traps. Keevan, the warning against using safer soap in direct sunlight -- if I am not seriously mistaken --- is for when the product is wet, much the same as you are not supposed to mist your plants (or water your lawn, etc) in the heat of the day. Once the product is dry, full sun should be okay. That means you would spray the plants in late afternoon or early evening. (But ask the manufacturer or your local Ag group about it.)
Keevan	posted June 15 2006 04:36 PM I just got what looks to be a great recipe for first round of insect warfare...my source is a local friend of mine (big time organic farmer/gardner; wiccan; environmentally uberfriendly): chewing tobacco tea (red man works best) 1 tsp dish doap 2 TBS minced garlic or garlic juice get chewing tobacco -- brew tea with it. really. imagine you are making tea but substitute the chewing tobacco. let it steep for several minutes. red man works best because the tobacco leaves are larger but any chewing tobacco will work. after you've steeped the tea, remove the tobacco leaves, to the tobacco tea liquid add the soap and garlic juice. mix well. use a spray bottle and spritz the infected plants. you should see results in less than two days. works well on most insects from aphids to apple worms.
Demeter	posted June 15 2006 04:43 PM It may be organic, but nicotine is poison. If you were a smoker, you could get the same results from soaking your cigarrette butts. If you do decide to go that route, wear long sleeves and gloves while applying the mix, and wash your hands after you use it. Also wash any produce in the vicinity very carefully before eating it. Nicotine is a wonderful insecticide but it is also a pet-icide and a people-icide so do please take care.
Keevan	posted June 15 2006 08:02 PM went to the local greenhouse, and found a garden girl to assist me with my problem. i explained my situation, my plan, and asked for her advice. she laughed at me. she said, you can try a more natual solution, but if the problem is as bad as i think it is, you need chemical help. she immediately recommended a product called "eight": http://www.bonide.com/ her "if the problem is as bad as I think it is" test: look at the bottom of the leaves of the pepper plants (note: you'll need to spray there). if there are significant, eggs/larvae/bugs, don't bother with a slower more natural solution, your peppers will be long eaten alive. so i bought the spray, and checked my pepper leaves. EEEEEEEEWWWWW. I was wrong. I knew i had an aphid infestation, but it was far, far, FAR WORSE than i had thought. literally every square inch of the underside of every leaf of every pepper plant was covered in aphids. garden girl thought this was probably generation 3-5 which had reached critical mass. EEEEEEEEEEWWWW. so in the process of lifting each leaf to spray the underside (wearing gloves) my hand became completely covered in the fucking little critters. EEEEEWWWW. needless to say, i'm still creeped out. but better now that chemical warfare has been applied. i wait three days and spray again.
Keevan	posted June 16 2006 11:43 AM i'm clearly obsessed with my aphid problem. I'm working from home, out on my balcony, on the first below average temperature day in about a month, with my blossoming beautiful japanese eggplant in front of me; when i look closer at one of the flowers. the selfsame small sesame seed eggs of bloody aphids. they have now started on my eggplant. i have rained bloody dealth from above. on the pepper front, it appears to have worked. but sometime tomorrow, i'm going to spray wash the plants with water and see if that removes what i hope to be carcasses. and then if they are still around, spray again sunday. i hates them.
DSF	posted June 16 2006 12:26 PM Jesus loves the little children...
Keevan	posted June 16 2006 04:17 PM aphids are not little children. they are parasites.
Keevan	posted June 21 2006 10:49 AM Aphid War II: Entry: June 18th -- it appeared the chemical carpet bombing worked. i hit the bastards with a high powered water gun to clear the carcasses. Entry: June 19th -- damn fuckers are resilient; i thought i had chemically removed them, and washed away the leftovers, but it appeared there was more activity. another generation? i'll observe further Entry: June 20th -- #$%^&#%!#$!#$^^%&#%!@#$%! I hates them. The first chemical attack was clearly not sufficient. They have returned in numbers approaching the first wave. I rain down more liquid death. I may need to return to the garden supply store for more intel. This weapon may not have enough teeth...
Peanut	posted June 21 2006 12:06 PM Maybe you could try growing your chilis indoors. I've seen some in pots that turned into amazon critters. I'm about to give up on my wild rosebush, as it has come down with rosette disease (making the canes and leaves all distorted)...it's caused by mites, but my systemic insect killer isn't doing the job. I guess I have mixed feelings about spraying poison, anyway. I guess if you're only putting it on one set of plants it's probably no big deal, but I gave up on having a weed-free lawn once I realized I'd have to carpet bomb with toxic goop. Just don't want the stuff on my bare feet, and killing all the birds out back. _{(We've got quite a crop this year...tons of goldfinches, two sets of nesting bluebirds, a couple brown thrashers, a whole family of red tailed hawks...it's a lot of fun. Only thing is the damn raccoons are pulling up all my bulbs again. I live kind of out in the country and we've also got a bit of a rabies problem hereabouts. I haven't seen any skunks foaming at the mouth in the broad daylight, but I'm not sure I could tell them from my rabid conservative neighbors in any event...}
Putumayo	posted June 21 2006 06:33 PM Speaking of birds (and I'm sorry to threadjack a little-- I am actually very interested in Keevan's aphid war), what we thought were a pair of mockingbirds have nested near my house and they're making our cat miserable. She's getting a severe complex from all the screaching and dive-bombing. It's actually two pairs of mockingbirds and there's nothing so bad as getting attacked by four birds at one time. Considering the number of birds and small mammals she's killed, I guess this is a form of justice.
Peanut	posted June 22 2006 07:58 PM Mockingbirds are among the pairs of nesting birds that can run off hawks. I've been bugging my birding friends for ideas on how to lure them, since the hawks are scaring my songbirds to death. _{Was feeling pretty sorry for the bluebirds, which had already nested/fledged out front before the redtails moved in. Mostly they eat squirrels, chipmunks & stuff, and they've run off a pair of Cooper's that had been hanging around here...Cooper's do prey on songbirds. Though I was more worried before I saw a flock of five bluebirds chase one off one day. They're also pugnacious little rascals. The female of one of our nesting pairs divebombs straight at my eyeballs if I get anywhere near her eggs in the birdhouse out front...I keep trying to remember to warn the mailman.} _{Kind of interesting, the survival of the fittest going on around here. Last night I heard a mockingbird sitting in a tree near a parking lot at the grocery, singing its heart out...imitating a car alarm. He did a pretty good job! WOOP WOOP WOOP...screeeeee.....screeeeee....}
Keevan	posted June 23 2006 09:54 PM June 21 -- I rained more liquid death. I'm beginning to think I need another weapon. It seems to knock them back but doesn't kill them. June 22 -- the aphids are winning. Casualties: two peppers. Both of the largest peppes on my plant fell off today when I was watering. The aphids have swarmed the stems and flowers. June 23 -- rain of insecticide death. They have now found my eggplant very tempting. They are ALL over the small eggplants and flowers. I'll visit the garden supply store again tomorrow. This war can not be won with the weapons I currently have at my disposal. I HATES them.
Peanut	posted June 24 2006 03:52 PM Remember to scrub hell out of any produce you eat, if you've insecticided it. I put out some Japanese beetle pheromone traps today. They smell kinda good, actually. Clove-y. Not sure they're going to work, but I did notice a few beetles stirring around them a bit ago.
Keevan	posted June 26 2006 12:30 AM June 24 -- a day of rest in the war. I want to observe them. no more rain of death. observations: the rain of death doesn't work well...kills maybe 20%. but they come back. harder. so new weapons will be purchased. june 25 -- my eggplant is now officially full blown war zone. they have swarmed it to the same extent (about 90% coverage) as the peppers. i think the peppers are a lost cause. so new weapon applied: Safer soap. the insecticide wasn't too keen and the garden lady wasn't too helpful. But it wasn't horribly expensive and i'll try. the previous stuff didn't work, so how can this be any worse. I'm just sick because i don't think i'll get must pepper harvest and if these things disrupt my eggplants i'll be unhappy. I so HATES them.
Keevan	posted June 26 2006 01:56 PM June 26th -- something new: the ahpids from hell seem to have turned a beautiful new color this morning; it resembles tan. something that the first spray didn't do. could it be that the soap has caused them to die??!!
Demeter	posted June 26 2006 04:17 PM Well, Safer Soap does kill aphids, so it is likely that what you are seeing are dead ones. However, these suckers reproduce sexually and asexually, and do so at a great rate. All you need are a few aphids to start another colony. I recommend spraying every so often (check the bottle for frequency of application) and spraying the plants adjacent to the ones where you found the infestation. Oh, and at the end of the growing season, either throw out the dirt you've used or bake it to kill any remaining insects.
Keevan	posted June 26 2006 04:44 PM shudder -- the thought of aphids NEXT year terrifies me. i'll dispose of dirt and possibly burn the planters. I really, really, really despise these things. I'm all but certain, my eight pepper plants will produce maybe 5-6 peppers total. they are almost a total loss. maybe i'll get another batch of flowers and veggies to sprout forth this season if the bugs are dead and can stay dead. AHHHH.
Keevan	posted July 01 2006 05:53 PM Aphid update: safer soap is the big winner in the war. One application and I had tons of little tan dead bugs. Woo hoo. I reapplied today (july 1) to stop the next generation of the bloody bugs. my peppers look pretty badly damaged though. I hope i still get some.
Keevan	posted July 02 2006 05:57 PM I HATE THEM. The soap worked on the peppers and eggplant...so the fucking bugs simply moved to my mixed greens. was trying to make a salad tonight...and noticed for the first time they have invested my greens. ARGH.
Peanut	posted July 04 2006 11:18 PM I wonder if you could just move everything inside if you're doing container gardening. The Japanese beetle traps worked like gangbusters. I'm going to order some more shortly. (That is, they worked the last time I checked them, five or six days ago...I'm still on vacation, loafing in the hotel room...)
Keevan	posted July 05 2006 11:46 AM I could, in theory, move the plants inside (since they are all containers)...BUT: the mental thought of the bugs in my house is too much to bear. And, I'm not sure why brining the plants inside would help in the Aphid war? Why would indoor vs outdoor mean anything for the bugs? Another generation has sprung forth. These things suck. I need to aquire more soap. On the plus side, the ladybugs have returned!
Peanut	posted July 05 2006 10:55 PM You wouldn't keep getting new infestations, for one thing. D'you have a garage?
Keevan	posted July 06 2006 01:02 PM No garage. And I'm 90-95% certain that these things simply breed very voraciously and very fast and keep repopulating. The soap is good -- very good -- compared to the insecticide, but even a handful of bugs seems to be able to repopulate the swarm in just a few days. On the plus side: apparently my peppers are doing better than I had realized...i discovered about half a dozen new peppers growing this morning. If I can keep these fucking things dead.
omiewise Junior Member	posted July 07 2006 02:49 PM I had an aphid infestation on my tomatoes and a couple of days of simply picking them off with my fingers basically got rid of them, even in the areas where they were swarmed over the leaves and buds.
DSF	posted July 09 2006 01:55 AM You know, Keevan. If I didn't know better, I would have said that this whole thread was a stealth advertisement for the new movie, A Scanner Darkly. (I just bought the unabridged transcript of the book from Audible.com, and when I started listening to the story, I burst right out laughing.)
Keevan	posted July 09 2006 03:17 AM DSF: I have no idea what you are talking about. Don' t know a thing about in a scanner darkly. sounds like i might have to take a look (or listen)
DSF	posted July 09 2006 07:53 AM Well, this isn't really a spoiler, since the opening paragraphs of the book are all about this... The book opens talking about a guy who hallucinates that he, his home, his lungs, everything around him, are completely infested with bugs, that incessantly bite him. He takes 8-hour long showers as the only remedy to temporarily get relief. He's not an intelligent man, but he does some research and decides that the bugs are aphids, despite the fact that everyone tells him that aphids don't bite.
Keevan	posted July 09 2006 08:49 PM Does quick check. Yeah, the fucking aphids are real. No they don't bite.
Peanut	posted July 10 2006 12:43 PM Bah. Watch out for rabbits, while you're at it. We had a couple pepper plants doing pretty well...came home last night to find the stalks gnawed in half. Jeez. I can't seem to keep anything alive this year. It's a critter fiesta out there.
DSF	posted July 14 2006 01:48 PM Here's the first 24 minutes of the recently released movie of A Scanner Darkly which details the bit about the bugs. NSFW. Click on the item in the top left box, and enter in age-check info.)
Keevan	posted July 17 2006 04:32 PM it has been a while since an update of the front lines of the aphid war. 1. aphids do NOT like cool, wet damp weather. we had three days of overcast drizzly cool weather last weekend (unlike the blistering 100+ now). they didn't do well then. they are thriving again now 2. the war ebbs and flows. i kill them. they regrow. i kill them. they breed more. it is about time for another round of liquid soap death. 3. ace hardware sucks. liquid soap was $6.00 more expensive than at lowes. a $4.00 application should not cost $10.
Keevan	posted July 31 2006 04:17 PM An overdue update in the aphid war. we had three days of below average, rainy cool, dreary, sunless weather a couple of weeks ago. The aphids all died. Forget soap, insecticide, etc. The number one weapon in a biological war: mother nature. I've been enjoying tons of tomatoes, herbs, and greens. The eggplants are getting close. And now the peppers have had a bit of change to recover -- so I'm getting more fruit! woo hoo. I may yet have a garden.
Keevan	posted August 08 2006 02:42 PM another quick garden update: the aphids have remain dead. thank god. the peppers have recovered brilliantly and I am getting a much better than expected crop. woo hoo tomatoes have been being harvested for a while now, yum...nothing like tomatoes fresh off a vine (well washed first), eggplants should be harvested this week. it has been a fun experience, which i'll definately try again next year...hopefully sans aphids.
Keevan	posted September 05 2006 04:28 PM Another update: still no aphids! i have lots of peppers. yum. my favorites are the banana peppers that cross-polinated with the mexibells. although i now have ample jalepenos (the ones that cross-polinated w/ the red hot peppers = darling red jalepenos!). the eggplant was very yummy. oddly after i harvested the whole plant upped and died. and now its regrowing and coming back. i still am getting a few tomatoes; the herbs are yummy; and the mixed greens still prodigous. all in all -- the garden was a great success.
DSF	posted September 05 2006 04:47 PM The one thing I sorely miss about living in an apartment now is the gardening I did at my old place. It wasn't much, but being able to open the back door and pick a tomato or cut some herbs to put in whatever I'm cooking... And while I probably spend less, all in all, when I buy a couple pounds of pickling cucumbers nowadays, instead of growing them myself, it's just not the same.
Keevan	posted September 06 2006 12:06 PM very few things taste better than a tomato picked immediately off a vine that you grew. that, and having herbs to clip fresh whenever you need them.
Keevan	posted October 12 2006 11:45 AM Final garden update: well it froze last night so the garden came down / was moved inside. I salavaged many of the heartier herbs (oregano, rosemary, chives, thyme, etc.) they should winter -- but others like the basil, parsley, cilantro, mint were pretty much spent anyway. My eggplant apparently wanted to live again. After its first massive harvest, it dropped every leaf it had. Now it has roared back with a fully developed foliage and dozens of blossoms! I'll see how it does inside. The peppers were a mixed bag. I have dozens of habeneros! yum. but they were late bloomers anyway. My jalepenos went first (and were awesome) about the same time as the mexi-bell / banana crossed peppers. The big bells didn't fair that well (probably because they were in a relatively small container); but the smaller peppers floursihed. And something that caused me to smack my head -- i apparently didn't punch the drainage vents of my pot! Ha. Didn't mean much during the summer months, but late in the fall they didn't suck up as much water and had a bit of roor-rot. Live and learn. Overall, I'm very happy with the results. some clear winners (herbs/japaneese eggplant/peppers) some clear loosers (my zucchini never took to its home). The tomatoes were ever only moderate -- again, the smaller tomatoes faired better...but as i leaned from another patio gardener, they were diseased as it was...so not too much more. Next year -- a few modifications: more peppers in more spread out containers so they don't get too bunched. smaller varieites (or more space). some hanging viney things (peas, beans, etc.). BIGGER pots.
DSF	posted October 12 2006 12:00 PM I'll see how it does inside. Considering the title of this thread, I can't see this as being a great idea.
Keevan	posted October 12 2006 12:51 PM LOL. well the aphid war was over by the end of july. cool weather and rain did them in. so moving them inside doesn't bother me anymore. I'll keep an eye on the eggplant since that was the only thing that is still alive and had aphids on it. aphids inside scare me. but i'd love more eggplants!
Keevan	posted December 07 2006 02:59 PM Garden update -- in mid December! I moved stuff inside (eggplant and heartier herbs). They are struggling under the lack of real sunlight. My Rosemary kicked the bucket. Thyme, oregeno, and sage are doing ok. The eggplant has once again been infested -- but this time not aphids! But probably worse (at least more creepy) some sort of tiny spider. I began noticing that the buds had a silky white growth on them...and upon further (and closer inspection) realized that it wasn't a growth, but little coccoon like spider webs. Created by tiny pin-head sized spiders. On the plus side, i actually LIKE spiders. On the down side, any insect infestation inside myhouse is cause for alarm. So, in one final attempt to get a second harvest out of the eggplant, i brought the eggplant back outside on a couple of warm days and treated the plant with another round of chemical warfare. The spiders died. Temporarily. A couple weeks later another generation came back. So i gave up. The eggplant was finally removed. It wasn't really doing that well with the colder temps and lack of light and my attepts at hand pollination didn't work too well either. I tried... Herbs are still OK. We'll try again next year!
Demeter	posted December 07 2006 03:06 PM Spider mites, I think they are called. They can be really destructive, and spread like crazy. Dump the plant before everything is infested. And you could have left the rosemary outside. They are perennials. (Some oregano is, too.)
Keevan	posted May 13 2007 11:37 PM Garden 2007. hopefully aphid free. i planted my garden last weekend. i'm insane. i have, once again, converted my balcony into a container garden. I have expanded over last year... This year: I have 11 types of peppers 4 tomato plants 13 varieties of herbs 2 boxes of mixed greens (i'll rotate mixes and varieties and reseed throughout the summer to ensure continuous greenage) a japaneese eggplant a box of brussell sprouts a box of 2heads broccolli; 2 cauliflower 2 hanging baskets of peas a half barrell with a zuccini, surrounded by a ring of beets, surrounded by a ring of carrots a cucumber yes, i'm insane. this is all on a balcony. it is eastern facing, but the southern edge gets light through most of the afternoon. the most demanding sunlovers live there. the coolest thing is how quickly things grow. i planted from seeds, the greens, carrots, and beets -- all have already sprouted and are doing well. they'll get thinned next weekend. i'm hoping to learn from last years bug wars and enjoy a bountiful, and hopefully bug free garden this year. I'll keep you posted.
Demeter	posted May 16 2007 09:43 PM If you didn't reuse any of last year's dirt, you've made a good start. If you did, expect bugs and be prepared for combat. Enjoy your garden. It is a productive "hobby" and provides great satisfaction, regardless of its size.
Keevan	posted May 17 2007 03:21 AM